What are your thoughts on the Arizona immigration bill?

[nicknack]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpa ... ation.html

The broad anti-immigrant bill passed by the Legislature this week makes it a crime to be in the country illegally and gives local cops the job of demanding documentation if they have reasonable suspicion someone lacks it.

The need to carry proper ‘papers’ falls squarely on Arizona's Latino population -- including those born and raised in the Grand Canyon State. The bill invites racial profiling and ignores the fact that Latinos are an intrinsic part of Arizona's history and its future. Arizona's senators should know that.

The bill . . . is bringing thundering bad publicity that will echo for years to come. It will lead to lost economic-development opportunities, lost tourism and lost opportunities to expand our trade and commercial ties with Mexico.

[nicknack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijeXGv9QLRc

[GLOBAL]

if they really wanted to stop illegal immigration they would fine/imprison the employers that hire illegal workers.

But they wont do that because this country is built off slave labour. When doing business, labour is the most costly expense and the best way to workaround this is to find new sources of slave labour to exploit

west African, Chinese, Irish, Mexican, etc, etc.


The bill does nothing to address the exploitation and abuse that these workers go through. From dangerous working conditions to outright extortion in some cases, its well documented that the employers take advantage of these folks on a daily basis. Not to mention the wage stagnation that comes as a result of improper hiring practices.

[nicknack]

if they really wanted to stop illegal immigration they would fine/imprison the employers that hire illegal workers.

100% agreed. They just want the appearance.

[madgods]

Fuck Arizona, fucking facist fucks. I love the refried bean swastikas. rotfl.

But about what ya'll are talking about-->The feds and the states have been charging a lot more employers with crimes in the past few years. There's a lot of examples. The Feds are even trying to make hardcore examples by taking property:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010 ... n-charges/

Of course, this could totally be smokescreens and propaganda but either way I'm gonna politely scoff at the idea that cheap illegal labor equates to slave labor, seriously. i feel what you're saying- but a little perspective.

The only way the whole issue would ever go away is if American consumers stopped buying quantities of cheap crap and paid more for better quality.

China is an example of slave labor and indentured servitude. China's labor cost for textiles is so cheap that Mexico is in a trade war with it. In attempts to source clothing manufacturing for MadGods, we've tried to send samples to mexican factories only to have customs attempt to charge us 1000% tariffs because just one of the items was labeled "made in china". I mean hundreds of dollars in custom fees to ship a half dozen used clothing items with a value less than $20. That's how stiff the competition is when the other guy is a communist country, with over abundant human resources, no qualms about pollution or human rights, and an artificially undervalued currency. In other words, if mexico didn't have a defensive posture against Chinese slave labor- EVERY JOB in Mexico that is textile related would leave to China. All of them. Think about how cheap that must be that Mexicans can't compete. America may never compete again. But now the market for manufactured goods is so fucking lopsided that if you even attempted to replace a fraction of america's cheap labor with "real americans" the resulting inflation would most likely shock the economy. If you were to wholesale enforce it, it would likely decimate America's ability to create anything anyone could actually afford, let alone want.

Pretty much In the whole rest of the world, it would be slave labor.

In America today, illegals usually get minimum wage or better. They can organize. The majority of illegals probably aren't working for the gov't, or major corporations. They work for small time independent business' like mine and and private people. Nike and Apple can't even compete. They profit from cheaper foreign labor that can't be replicated here because our domestic cheap labor actually have rights that up their cost. Plus they enjoy almost totally unhindered access to social services and are able to repatriate large sums of untaxed cash back to their home countries (sometimes accounting for the largest imported source of cash).

and i agree they get shitted on- but so do real american's with real social security numbers in many of the same ways. the nature of business is exploitive. many illegal immigrant workers in the US probably have more advocates and better access to courts here than they do in their home countries.

[GLOBAL]

Of course, this could totally be smokescreens and propaganda but either way I'm gonna politely scoff at the idea that cheap illegal labor equates to slave labor, seriously. i feel what you're saying- but a little perspective.

Ive got some anecdotal evidence about two dudes from Honduras that were basically serfs, but Im not sure that would convince you; so here's some documented examples of workers living as slaves in the US
http://www.iabolish.org/slavery_today/usa/states.html

The Cadena family, from Veracruz, Mexico, smuggled at least 22 young women from Mexico to the United States and then forced them into prostitution. The women — some of them as young as 14 — were lured by promises of good-paying jobs. Instead, they found themselves as sex slaves in trailer park brothels in Florida and South Carolina. They were kept in deplorable conditions and regularly beaten. If a woman got pregnant, she was forced to have an abortion. The brothels' clients paid $20 for sex. For each transaction, $3 was subtracted from the $2000 to $3000 'smuggling fee' that these women ostensibly owed their captors. After a series of raids and arrests, family ringleader Rogerio Cadena pleaded guilty to a number of charges. He faces up to 15 years in prison.

http://www.bestandworst.com/v/114330.htm

About 17,000 people trafficked into United States from Mexico each year


Washington -- An official with the U.S. State Department has called on the United States and Mexico to work together to end the global problem of trafficking in persons, a crime against humanity that has been likened to "modern-day slavery."

Speaking October 4 in Tijuana, Mexico, John Miller, the State Department's director of the Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons, said the cooperation is needed because about 17,000 people are being "trafficked" from Mexico into the United States each year. That number includes migrant workers, and women and children brought into the United States for purposes of commercial and sexual exploitation...

http://www.coha.org/modern-day-slavery- ... ed-states/
In addition to sex trafficking, victims from Mexico are also held captive by farm operators, who exploit them as a source of cheap labor. Ambassador C. de Baca has said that, “the pickles and tomatoes that we eat are more and more being picked by people held against their own will.” While U.S. citizens are starting to become more aware of sexual trafficking, few individuals realize that modern-day slavery is taking place on U.S. farms. Unfortunately, the demand for inexpensive labor in the U.S. often leads to the exploitation of illegal immigrants and trafficking victims. Especially in the current financial climate, more farm and factory owners are in need of cheap labor to ensure that profits remain high despite the economic downturn.

[nicknack]

[djdiggla]

I'm surprised Arizona is doing that... seems like political suicide.

[prhymemates SA]

and to think...the old fart that almost was elected as president over president obama is from the govt in that state!

That placed is fkd anyway. Remember the early 90s vote not to celebrate the Dr. Martin Luther King holiday?

...by the time I get to arizona....

[djdiggla]

Wow. Totally didn't know about that!

[madgods]

I know there examples of people who, because they are under the radar as illegals, are exploited beyond cheap labor. I know that, and i've seen a couple of the specific examples already being an internet news head. My point isn't whether it happens, it's that to make that the central argument for immigration reform is just missing the target. All those things you mentioned are illegal no matter who you do it to- legal or illegal. But these instances are very rare compared to the millions of cases of undocumented workers who come here (willingly) just to work. It's painting a very large canvas with the same stroke. Like pointing to the worst scenario of what an illegal immigrant might do while in the country and using that to pass a epic racist bill targeting all of them.

[GLOBAL]

But these instances are very rare compared to the millions of cases of undocumented workers who come here (willingly) just to work.

My first real look into the issue came in a class @UT. We looked at the shroud of secrecy these workers were forced to work/live under and those that take advantage of them using the threat of deportation as motivation.

I don't have any metrics to indicate this is a rare occurrence. Do you have any proof that illegal immigrants being treated as slave labour is "rare"?

I would submit that most undocumented workers are forced to pay extortionate sums to the coyotes to get over here and then they have to live in substandard housing and labour under hazardous working conditions with no protection, workers comp or fair wages.

I've read instances where after a worker is injured they are suddenly deported. Some meat packing plants in the US will advertise in Mexico because these un-unionized workers are easy to control and have no real rights....

[madgods]

but what about the human rights issue of people emigrating and improving their lives? i know the new world order wants open borders, but the only option to enforce immigration is more new world order. and human trafficking is not the same as immigration, even if they are both illegal. Feds don't like human trafficking. They are women and fathers and find it unconscionable, i know from experience, and spend a lot of resources fighting it.

but to answer your question, i define rare as- i've never met an illegal immigrant i suspected of being a slave. I'm sure the ones i would are probably locked up in a box somewhere, but I would argue, even without statistics, that the status quo is not that illegal immigrant labor either qualifies as being slave labor or in any way equal to domestic labor. Most of it is in between, and individual cases vary depending on circumstances, networking and dumb luck. But from your own sources, it would seem to me that current laws and applications are not a defacto sanction of slave labor- just a lot grey area that can lead to criminal acts of exploitation. in the end, if folks do those things that qualify as slave labor- they are being investigated and prosecuted. i'm sure exceptions exist but over all, even economy isn't gonna make the actual law forgive such acts.

We need smarter laws and enforcement so we can be competitive without being so exploitive. To me the situation for illegals here is similar to convicted felons: limited rights, limited general sympathy, more exposure to manipulation. But if you're here, and your not locked in a box, you have opportunities to learn, organize and act to change that- which can't be said for a slave.

[GLOBAL]

fair enough.

I think that making the differentiation between a migrant worker and a "slave" is a slippery slope. Certainly, Im not equating chattel slavery with what the average illegal immigrant has to go through, but we can agree that these folks are being exploited by the business class. The extent of that exploitation is debatable.

I found this article interesting, it mentions migrant workers and how they are treated in Mexico:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_ ... migrants_1

Amnesty International called the abuse of migrants in Mexico a major human rights crisis Wednesday, and accused some officials of turning a blind eye or even participating in the kidnapping, rape and murder of migrants.

The group's report comes at a sensitive time for Mexico, which is protesting the passage of a law in Arizona that criminalizes undocumented migrants.

At present, Article 67 of Mexico's Population Law says, "Authorities, whether federal, state or municipal ... are required to demand that foreigners prove their legal presence in the country, before attending to any issues."

The Interior Department said the government has taken some steps to combat abuses and Mexico's legislature is working to repeal Article 67 "so that no one can deny or restrict foreigners' access to justice and human rights, whatever their migratory status."

[djdiggla]

Lil 'bamma action to stoke the fire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ohsvJH ... r_embedded

[madgods]

Yeah, that Mexico story has been circulating strong. Did you see the part of their law that states they can offer no service (police, legal, medical) until legal status is established-it's a pretty standard law actually, but It drives immigrants right in to the arms of criminal gangs.

Also, there was this interesting article about the backlash:
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/immigratio ... 724&page=2

It's not that great a story but i thought it was ironic how the major industry in AZ being affected already is tourism. The same industry that is major employer of illegals. Haha- fixed that problem!

Another irony today, listening to Alex Jones and Katherine Albrecht- He's all for the the law- she's not. I'm with her on this one. It's another step towards national id's, databases and controlled access. The law in AZ as written goes as far as to punish police who do not enforce it. Does this mean everyone who speaks with a non American accent or foreign language should expect to show papers? What if walked to the store with just my cash to by a drink and i'm wearing a Arsenal jersey?